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[讨论]伦敦铜大战就在眼前

本帖已经被作者加入个人空间

[讨论]伦敦铜大战就在眼前

    期货市场就是和平年代的金融战场.中国在海外期货市场屡屡折戟沉沙,近的有中盛粮油巨亏CBOT,中航油新加坡巨亏5.5亿美元,远的有1997年的"株冶"事件,亏损了14亿元人民币.眼前又一场大战正在打响,中国国家物资储备局Vs海外基金.

    此前,中国头寸在伦敦金属交易所做空铜亏损总额达到60亿元的传闻就在网上流传了很久.11月14日亚洲华尔街日报报道:中国国家物资储备局铜期货交易员刘启斌(译音)下落不明,据说他在伦敦金属交易所(LME)建立大量空头部位,中国可能因此损失上亿美元,并演变成LME1996年以来最大的亏损案。后来又有估计,说总值可能高达8亿美元.

  泰晤士报报道说,刘启斌是伦敦金属交易所的熟面孔,也是代表中国政府交易铜期货的主要交易员。近几个月以来,他拿中国政府的资金来赌国际铜价将会下跌。然而,国际铜价却一路走高,到前日还创下每公吨4132美元的新高纪录.

    些交易员说,刘建立的铜空头部位介于10万到20万吨,中国物资储备局必须按照LME的规定,在12月21日最后期限前把铜现货交到经LME核准的仓库。

    国储局否认有刘姓交易员这个人.但国储的行动却让人确信传言不虚.11月9日,国家发改委官方网站挂出消息,国储局物资调节中心宣布将在11月16日公开拍卖2万吨铜,而后国储局有关官员高调宣布中国的铜的储备高于世界市场的预期;首批2万吨铜昨天在北京拍卖。

    一场大战正在爆发.看看双方的筹码.每日经济新闻的叶檀有如下分析:

    "国储局的最大优势就是政府信用与国家经济实力,可以寻求政府相关部门的政策支持。首先,国储局有关官员透露铜库存达130万吨,可以抛售的数量远高于市场预期,以打压做多的势力;第二,抛出库存铜打压上海期铜价格,以期影响世界期铜价格;第三,政府有关部门进行行业调控,以抑制国内对铜高企的需求量。日前国家发改委经济运行局副局长贾银松明确地提出铜行业尤其是铜冶炼行业出现了投资过热的情况,目前对铜行业相关的专项发展政策正在拟定中。这是对减少铜需求量的釜底抽薪的办法。


    国际商品基金的筹码要多得多。最重要的是手中握有重金,有一定的抗压能力。所以,他们可以拒绝相信中国国储局有关官员透露的铜的库存量,无视世界铜业组织、汇丰银行、标准银行对于铜需求将趋于饱和的报告,继续吸盘拉升价格。到目前为止,LME市场期铜价格连创新高,持仓水平稳定。这些基金不到交割日中方付出真金白银,绝不会收手。不仅如此,这些基金多属国际期市的老玩家,挟重金而定价,挟规则以自雄。如果此次国储在伦敦卖空的传言属实,到时无法交割,投机基金可以直接获利;如果国储可以交割,基金持有铜,则可静候国储补库时以更高的价格卖出。这些基金对于世界市场的周旋余地也大得多,比如对于产铜区的罢工时限的调整,对于具有世界影响力的财经媒体的运用等等。"

    对于多头,其倚仗是,中国国储即使能拿出20万吨铜履行交割,要把铜运到最近的新加坡仓库,时间上也来不及.如果空头无法交割就只能平仓,空头回补的买盘回把铜价推升得更高.

    对于空头,我们还可以注意到国际社会近期对抗通胀的加息措施,美元升值,各国联合释放库存导致原油下跌,还有中国工业需求的减少,等等因素对国储做空形成支持.

     在技术面上看,伦敦铜在4185有一定阻力,在4200附近则有大阻力.如果把伦敦3月期铜在2004.5的底部和2005.4.11的顶部中间部分看成平台,那么测量升幅在4200.这个位置我曾经在<9月金融市场展望>一帖中指出,不幸言中.

     国储如果借助技术面上的有利条件,集中火力,在今天或明天的日线中,把铜价打下300美元以上,然后连续55天打出阴线,则可扭转趋势,获得大胜.

     打字时,伦铜最高已经到4182.5.大战在演,好戏不容错过.

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更正倒数第二段应是)连续5天收出阴线.

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铜的走势实在是出乎太多人的意料了。小鸡周围有好多朋友或做空,或看空,最早可是从3000美元以下开始的,如果没有严格的资金管理,估计可能就亏大了。

钱比货多,这是个最基本的常识了,商品期货市场尤其如此。

商品市场的暴涨,很多人归结为是投机资金使然,既对又不全对。铜和原油等大宗商品价格远远超过生产成本,实际上也并没有出现真正短缺,涨成这个样子当然是资金推动的。不过根源却是美国自1944年布雷顿森林体系以来大量印刷货币,当货币不能为虚拟经济经济吸收时,只有进入实体经济中的商品市场,而最具备流动性的商品市场自然是商品期货市场。

1980-2000年美国股市大幅上涨,也使得黄金、原油、铜等等各大商品进入长期熊市,不过2000年前后,一切全都变了,美国股指至今比2000年低了很多(SP500),而商品大涨。美联储几十年来印了那么多钞票,这些钞票进入了世界经济的各个领域里面了,基金经理们只不过是把他们收到的钱往商品市场里面放而已,从长周期来看,每份投机资金的作用只不过是美国几十年来国家货币战略作用形成的因果链条中的一个螺丝钉而已。铜价今年不涨,未来也总是要涨的,至于涨到多少,那还有赖于各种主客观条件。很多人说是国外投机资金有意狙击中国空头,那未免有点自作多情了。

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小鸡分析的很不错
"很多人归结为是投机资金使然,既对又不全对"
"很多人说是国外投机资金有意狙击中国空头,那未免有点自作多情了。"

和我想的一样 我觉得3000美元的铜5----8年内是见不到了

国储就是些官僚 盲目听信一些所谓专家的话 把战略库存耗光了 顶多把铜打下来一段时间 再被消灭!

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刚才从朋友处得到消息,在伦敦金属交易所的相关中国机构中共有3位刘姓交易员,其中2位2005年年中才到,没有刘其兵这个人.他们猜测泰晤士报的这个消息有些问题,"that was a deal or arrangement inside it".

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伦敦铜刚才最高到了4222.5,今天是周末,估计多空双方都难再又所作为.
沪铜主力合约今天微跌0.5%,150元.

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According to all the foreign press even FT  ,saids Mr.Liu qibing was a vice general managner or seniro trader , something like that.

Any way, thanks for Mr. liu. We should not forget this name. He made
us become a hot topic recently in Paris, in Franckfort,in City (london) as well as in the Street (NY).

Becasue he himself , a chinese govenerment trader, may make china
default.
Again, tks a lot!

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Copper Rises to a Record on Speculation China May Default
2005-11-18 07:21 (New York)


By Simon Casey and Matthew Craze
     Nov. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Copper rose to a record in London on
speculation the Chinese government doesn't have enough of the
metal to make good on failed bets made by one of its traders.
     As much as 200,000 metric tons of copper must be delivered
to international warehouses because of positions amassed by Liu
Qibing, a trader for an affiliate of the National Development
and Reform Commission, the state-run China Daily said yesterday,
citing an unidentified official. There are about 140,000 tons of
copper in publicly reported stockpiles worldwide.
     ``The funds piled in and pushed prices higher,'' said Angus
Macmillan, an analyst in London at Prudential Bache, a member of
the London Metal Exchange. ``It's physically impossible to
deliver that metal anywhere. The government has basically
increased nervousness in a market that was already nervous.''
     Copper for delivery in three months on the London Metal
Exchange rose $50, or 1.2 percent, to $4,210 a ton as of 11:21
a.m. local time, heading for a fifth consecutive week of gains.
It earlier reached an all-time high of $4,220 a ton.
     Unprecedented statements by China on sales of copper from
its inventories this week have failed to convince investors the
nation can honor Liu's bets. The communist-run country, the
biggest consumer of the metal, will either default on its
commitments or have to cover losses of as much as $300 million,
according to Wang Zheng, a trader at Shanghai Dalu Futures Co.

                       `Infinitely Higher'

     China's obligations for copper deliveries are ``infinitely
higher than the stock that exists'' in exchange-approved
warehouses, said Mark Topfer, the former No. 2 lawyer at the
LME, in an interview yesterday. Topfer, who works in Norton
Rose's financial markets division in London, was the LME's
deputy general counsel until last year and advises brokers and
customers.
     The Beijing-based State Reserve Bureau, to which Liu was
affiliated, may be the second Chinese state-owned organization
to get into trouble in a year. In November last year, China
Aviation Oil (Singapore) Corp. sought protection from creditors
after it ran up $555 million of debt from trading oil
derivatives. The company bet prices would fall. They have risen
to records.
     The metal's 37 percent rally in the past 12 months also has
echoes of the Sumitomo Corp. scandal, when trader Yasuo Hamanaka
hoarded metal, sending copper up 69 percent in a year. Hamanaka
admitted in 1996 to unauthorized copper trades that lost the
Japanese company $2.6 billion. He was jailed.
     Copper inventory of 141,852 tons, equal to about three days
of global usage, is stored in warehouses monitored by the LME
and commodity exchanges in New York and Shanghai, according to
data compiled by Bloomberg.

                         `Personal Actions'

     Liu built up so-called short positions, betting copper
prices would fall, China Daily reported, citing an unnamed
official at government stockpile agency the State Reserve
Bureau.
     ``As far as I know, the loss was a result of his personal
actions, instead of the government,'' China Daily cited the
official as saying.
     The National Control Center for Supplies Reserve, under the
State Reserve Bureau, declined to comment today when contacted
by Bloomberg. No-one answered calls made to Liu's mobile phone.
     Liu hasn't been at work since last month, two people at
companies that traded with him told Bloomberg Nov. 15, declining
to be identified. He hasn't answered e-mails or calls to his
cell and landline phones.

                       `Eight Brokers'

     The LME, the world's biggest metals exchange, may employ
its special committee to settle a dispute between China and as
many as eight brokers who have done business with Liu if the
State Reserve Bureau, or SRB, reneges on the positions, Topfer
said.
     Adam Robinson, an LME spokesman based in London, declined
to comment yesterday. Calls to the SRB spokesman in Beijing were
not answered today.
     By building a short position, a speculator enters a
contract pledging to deliver a commodity by a specific date at a
preset price. The bet is that prices will fall so that delivery
can be made with supplies that are cheaper than when the
contract was sold.
     Liu isn't registered with the U.K.'s Financial Services
Authority in London, which regulates the LME, FSA spokesman
David Cliffe said yesterday.

                         Production Shortfall

     Copper has more than doubled in value since 2003, as
production fails to meet demand. The shortfall in output this
year will be 343,000 tons, Standard Bank in London forecast in a
Nov. 1 report.
     China has been announcing sales of copper to ease prices.
The SRB plans to sell 20,000 tons on Nov. 23, the National
Development and Reform Commission said Nov. 16. It sold the same
amount on the day of the announcement.
     The SRB may be selling copper to roll over some of its
contracts that are scheduled for delivery in December, Wang
said. A rollover is when a position is closed and replaced with
a similar one for a date further ahead.
     ``The key is whether the state can really deliver on the
200,000-ton position in London,'' said Yuan Fang, a trader at
Shanghai Dongya Futures Co., in a telephone interview yesterday.
     Speculation that the SRB may get government approval to
export 200,000 tons of copper to meet the obligations has
circulated in the Shanghai market, the China Daily said today.
The SRB has declined to comment.
     Prices for copper may rise another 9 percent this year,
before falling in 2006, as China is forced to make good on the
bets, said David Threlkeld, the first man to publicly allege in
1991 that Hamanaka was cornering the copper market. Threlkeld is
president of Resolved Inc. in Scottsdale, Arizona.
     Liu's current whereabouts are unknown. Liu, 40, may be at
home in Shanghai on leave, the Australian Financial Review said,
without citing anyone.

--With reporting by Xiao Yu and Koh Chin-Ling in Beijing, and
Megan Murphy in London. Editor: Carrigan (jnp, slw).


To contact the reporters on this story:
Matthew Craze in London at (44) (20) 7073 3129 or
mcraze@bloomberg.net;
Simon Casey in London at (44) (20) 7673 2631 or
scasey4@bloomberg.net

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按照这位朋友的说法,可以推测刘其兵20万吨弃仓的传闻应该是多头主力炮制的烟雾消息.国之将亡,必有妖孽.这也可看成顶部的迹象之一.
从技术面看,4246.5这里将成为至少是中线顶点.

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现在看来国际铜价是有可能上到4500美圆的
[align=right][color=#000066]本贴已被 作者 于 2005年11月20日 13时40分45秒 编辑过[/color][/align]

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